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Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

Must be nice to sit around and point fingers. Your words are ignorance and your opinions are uselss, those of you blaming the space. We get it, and it's in bad taste. The fact that many of you think the queerness and emotional safeness of the space doesn't matter only proves your privilege. The housing crisis here and the expense of safety and living are often unfathomable. You seem so small.

Posted by armoragainstwonder on 12/04/2016 at 8:29 PM

Re: “'I Genuinely Thought I Was Going To Die': Reddit User Describes Terrifying Escape From Oakland Warehouse Fire

I fear that the authorities will now, and justifiably so, come down hard on all the warehouse space venues in our wonderful creative city and in other cities as well. No one wants Oaklanders to create or host in death trap situations and the Ghost Ship venue sounds like it was out of hand for quite a while before the terrible tragedy of this weekend.

I was at a concert at the Anderson Theater in NYC MANY years ago (when we were young and foolish) before the building closed (was likely condemned) - Patti Smith - and there were open flame heaters heating the space in January. Outside temperature was in the low teens -- windy outside and freezing inside. We went in, saw the flaming heaters, and proceeded up to sit in the balcony WAY against our better judgment - but we did it. We knew how we got in and how to get out but totally knew the scene was WRONG and DANGEROUS but we froze in line for hours and were damned if would miss this event. When the show started, Patti sang three songs and the NYCFD came on stage to stop the show because the building was a fire hazard. Duh. No surprise there - Patti tried to speak to them then kept on singing and was dragged off the stage screaming out "Rock and Roll N...." with the entire audience shouting along and booing the emergency personnel who were of course 100%CORRECT. It was a crazy, unsafe and unforgettable experience BUT everybody lived to tell the tale.

We were lucky that night. Luck ended at the Ghost Ship this First Friday of December, 2016. My neighbor's friend lived there, smelled smoke, so opened his door, saw stuff falling from the ceilings and ran out. He was in his room watching a movie on TV, and not upstairs. No young people should be put in danger BY ANYONE to listen to music or create their art simply because they allow themselves to be in that situation. When we are young we think nothing bad can happen. But it can and it did this weekend. We have to do better.

Posted by Francesca M. Austin on 12/04/2016 at 8:06 PM

Re: “Building Engulfed by Deadly Oakland Fire Had Pending Habitability Complaints

Building Inspectors and Code Enforcement personnel are on the meat hook for this one.
Big Dog attorneys will hit a grand slam homer with this case.

The City knew what was going on in that warehouse
and did very little about the situation.

Posted by Tony Butcavage on 12/04/2016 at 7:45 PM

Re: “Operator of 'Ghost Ship' Lived Inside Site of Oakland Warehouse Fire with Wife, Children, Was on Probation

One of the allegations was that a group had a sex orgy at the Ghost Ship and didn't clean up after themselves. Derick Ion's son reportedly put a used condom in his mouth.

Posted by Patrick Carroll on 12/04/2016 at 7:32 PM

Re: “Operator of 'Ghost Ship' Lived Inside Site of Oakland Warehouse Fire with Wife, Children, Was on Probation

He and his wife had a CPS case - his three children were removed and eventually returned (though they weren't allowed to return to the collective warehouse due to the living conditions)

Posted by Erica Simanonok on 12/04/2016 at 6:15 PM

Re: “'I Genuinely Thought I Was Going To Die': Reddit User Describes Terrifying Escape From Oakland Warehouse Fire

Alright, I stand corrected about Klub Kommotion and am happy to know all that.
I've been in some pretty unsafe feeling places, there was one on Mission St between 21st and 22nd St. around 10 years ago that was an insane maze (stairs up and then some very illegal stairs down to get to the performance space).
I get what you're saying, Mike, it makes sense. I don't know the details about the Ghost Ship residents worrying about their gear, maybe that was published in another article? We're all upset, maybe I misread the tone of your first post.

Posted by jzarmin on 12/04/2016 at 5:36 PM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

"Why is everyone so upset about the transgender/people of color comment? Is it sooo bad to acknowledge diversity?" was asked...

I think it's because this was worded as clumsily as something that would come out of Donald Trump's mouth, and it seemed bizarre. The reader instantly starts wondering things like "what about gay people who aren't of color?" or other similarly silly questions that arise out of the "Who's the most marginalized" game? The fire didn't have biases. The fire didn't suffer from implicit stereotyping like a trigger-happy police officer.

Posted by Zephriz Mehne on 12/04/2016 at 5:06 PM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

An astounding amount of wrong headed and tin-eared victim shaming here. Perhaps if you don't have anything constructive to say you should consider shutting the hell up? We have people already calling for a witch-hunt that will only result in the shut down of alternative venues. So much art has been pushed to the margins already, it's shameful to blame the victim with this.

I wrote this up to bring up some important issues, and it could very well be a response to a lot of you folks. It seems like there are a lot of people that are very naive about the actual laws with this, bringing yourself up to code can often time mean losing the space because we do not have the equivalent of NYC's loft laws.…

Posted by Conan Neutron on 12/04/2016 at 4:48 PM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

I totally empathize with the marginalized community. I own a loft a few blocks down. Few times I rented my space to local artists for a show but I also put safety before money. I have working sprinklers, I don't allow people to go to the second floor, I have two emergency exits and I always make sure that the person putting the event together hire 3 or 4 friends who will not drink or use drugs to patrol the party in order to make sure that people don't intentionally set the fire or assault another person or women. I make people sign a contract that use or drugs is not allowed at any time inside the loft. I also don't allow more than 40 people and people under 21. In the contract it says that if any of those rules are broken I can stop the party any time. I've never had any problem. I expect people to act professional and they always did. I may not have too many bookings and I don't give a damn but safety first!

Posted by Lutecia on 12/04/2016 at 4:22 PM

Re: “Was Operator of Oakland Warehouse Fire Venue 'Warned' of Safety Issues, 'Illegal' Construction, Danger?

one of the saddest ironies is that there is literally ACME Fire Extinguisher store less than 100 yards away from this "tinderbox" that apparently no one at this warehouse ever patronized

Posted by lil mike on 12/04/2016 at 2:22 PM

Re: “Was Operator of Oakland Warehouse Fire Venue 'Warned' of Safety Issues, 'Illegal' Construction, Danger?

There is always a tug of war between city regulators and those who push the envelope and ignore city citations. It is therefore incumbent on the city to take action to prevent situations like the fire. Citations don't do it. When human lives are at stake you can't count on cowboys to respond forthrightly. Why didn't the City bureaucrats haul the operator in front of a judge. Or shut down the facility. 20 20 hindsight is easy, I know, but the violations were going on for a long time.

Posted by Tom Merle on 12/04/2016 at 2:07 PM

Re: “'I Genuinely Thought I Was Going To Die': Reddit User Describes Terrifying Escape From Oakland Warehouse Fire

I add this comment in response to the accusation that I am "high and mighty" for recognizing the liabilities in the absolute tragic failure and terrible consequences of the Ghost Ship event space rent party fire. As someone who has participated in the "underground" event economy for three decades, I am appalled at the fact that several of those that profited from this type of activity were initially worried about their "gear" and possessions they had "worked" hard for, while their attendees died in agony. Have many of the events I've promoted or attended been overcrowded at times, or dangerous? yes... but were lives lost? NO. At Klub Komotion the sparse decor may've included a few ratty couches, but hallway was well lit and wide. After some initial skirting of regulations in the late 80's, eventually (and oft under duress and great expen$e) we cooperated with authorities, to keep the place operating until eviction in the late 1990's. During the the time I was involved, we actually went down monthly to Mission Station and obtained permits from the police on a per event basis, and operated as an actual 501-c3 non-profit with offsite office for several years . We were not a residential compound and never actually bribed the fire marshall as was hinted to us, but still managed to have hundreds of safe events. We had someone get a rock thrown at their head and I've had irresponsible "burner" types insist on using torches in the dark crowded enclosed spaces against my physical and verbal protestations, but fortunately we all survived, and to my knowledge not one ambulance was ever called. At another warehouse party I was involved with last year, someone collapsed and hurt their head, but this was due to a medical condition, not furniture set in their path. I just want to say, it takes effort to hold an event and safety is a very serious and oft hard to manage goal. The obvious lack of serious consideration for fire is apparent in the decor of the Ghost Ship which was densely filled with wood and fabric with electronics intermingled. Many people have referred to that space as the Death Trap long before Friday's fire took so many lives. To cast aspersions in my direction because I am upset at the obvious failings on the part of those that abused their responsibilities is misguided at best. I love underground events, and understand that people need places to perform and gather outside the commercial venue circuit, but there are spaces that are better than others, and repercussions for doing a poor job of mitigating the safety considerations, and it is not something to be taken lightly. Don't blame the economy, or the government, or your parents, as ultimately there is no justice, just us. Do the right things and you won't ever be sorry... that is all.

Posted by (0) on 12/04/2016 at 2:06 PM

Re: “'I Genuinely Thought I Was Going To Die': Reddit User Describes Terrifying Escape From Oakland Warehouse Fire

Most people who live in buildings like this don't know the building code and don't know how dangerous they might be. Otherwise why would they be living there? There are tons of places like this that lots of us go to for art openings or music shows and the venues are fine and we all love the fact that they exist until a tragedy happens. I wouldn't get all high and mighty, Mike, and go blaming anyone involved until we find out what really happened. I'm an architect and I know that if we all built everything perfectly up to code fire-safety-wise only the very rich would be able to afford hosting entertainment venues. That's the reality in the Bay Area. Mike, was Klub Kommotion up to fire code? Probably not, it didn't stop us from going or working there.

Posted by jzarmin on 12/04/2016 at 12:05 PM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

***Sorry if this isn't Twitter-length worthy, but maybe people need to develop attention spans beyond Donald Trump's temperament***
We grieve, we dread the announcement of our friends' names, and we also dread the coming months - for we are already seeing how this unimaginable tragedy is being deployed in an attempt to crush the very culture and lives that are suffering. Talking heads and politicians on major media outlets are actively calling for the cops and fire marshals to shut down ALL non-sanctioned living and art spaces in town immediately, heedless of their individual circumstances or displacement impacts. To help accomplish this, the likes of Tom Vacar (KTVU anchorman) have called for the use of hypermilitarized public-private "partnerships" (modeled after nightmares like Urban Shield) between cops, fire departments, and military contractors to use SWAT team tactics on suspected illicit living and show/art spaces and their residents. In Libby Schaff's neoliberal vision of Oakland, one in which she wants to see the city become as much like Walnut Creek as possible as quickly as possible, this has a strong chance of becoming reality.

Many of the comments on Sam's article, and in threads I am seeing, are infuriated at the mention of "safe spaces" and marginalized people (particularly when it comes from marginalized people themselves), and there are a lot of accusations from the more troll-y of these commenters of this being a "politicization" of something that should be a "simple public safety issue". While the codes and misconceptions inherent to these commenters' views may seem obvious to many of us, it bears repeating overall that the mention of safe spaces isn't about the physical safety of the building's infrastructure. It is about the lack of aboveground (i.e. well-funded) gathering+living spots for marginalized people that allow them to exist and better-control their existential circumstances, with a lowered fear of assault and/or economic ruin, coupled with a relatively-exclusive promotions policy that is mainly extended to those who are coming from a similar place to them philosophically and socially.

This RELATIVE safety (there is no such thing as a truly "safe space") is something that many creative people, especially POC/queer/trans+/mentally-divergent people, etc., do not get to have in the more-legit bar/business and condo/apartment spaces that are about making $$ first and foremost as a necessity of staying in business, particularly in an insanely high-rent region like the bay area. The vast majority of these "legit" venues and housing (including bars, overpriced "artists' live-work" spaces, big halls, etc) do not take attendees'/residents' poverty into account and do not prioritize the needs and concerns of marginalized people in their business practice because they are all about filling vacancies and/or packing in as many people as they can, heedless of the intrapersonal conflicts and individual alienation potentially implicit in that. Until there are better options that are accessible to marginalized people, they will continue to need to live, gather, and perform in places that are safe(r) and accessible to them.

The particular circumstances of this incident, and the terribleness of the person running the particular space and the way he ran it, don't seem to be a matter of much dispute. However, it is important to recognize that the increasing volume of calls for all independent spaces (living and performance/art) to be shuttered will result in increased homelessness and a lack of community options for marginalized people who rely on such spaces for their sanity, community, and lives. Oakland is not Walnut Creek, nor should it be. If there are better options, many of us would love to hear them, but until the cities and overall culture take a true advocacy stance towards the physical space needs of marginalized people+artists (there are semi-successful examples in some cities in Europe, particularly in Germany), I suspect all that will be offered as a band-aid for destruction of the underground is more capitalist garbage that will do nothing to address the root issues.
BTW, I should note that four friends are still missing from this fire, one is confirmed dead, and I am completely in shock. I doubt any of them would want to see the culture they lived and thrived in to be crushed in response to their tragic (and avoidable) deaths.

Posted by johngeek27bd on 12/04/2016 at 12:04 PM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

Why is everyone so upset about the transgender/people of color comment? Is it sooo bad to acknowledge diversity? No one is saying white/straight people don't matter. I'm wondering why this is so triggering for everyone. Also, the blame game is a bit sickening. Obviously, the space was unsafe. At this point, however, the focus should be on the victims and their families.

Posted by Gina Renee on 12/04/2016 at 11:53 AM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

I urge those who have posted things like "moron" and "greedy", especially those who have no direct link to the artist community in the east bay area. In your heart of hearts do you think it is kind or appropriate to be calling people names and passing hard judgments right now? People grieve differently and there is going to be a lot of anger but make sure your anger is justified in your relation to the tragedy and propels change for positive and not just being a judgemental outlast.

I also do not like a couple of things in this article, or rather I think they were poorly worded and not the point right now. I think adding the comment of race or sex in this is it too early, is provoking, and should be discussed in a more calmer platform once we have all had a chance to grieve and think straight.

To give some outside people perspective, there are many artists who live in these warehouse spaces because they can't afford to live alone or if they did it would be outside the city, disconnected, and probably in a shoe box appt. These are people that works together and share supplies and resources as the rent continues to increase in urban settings. The bay has always been expensive so that's why these places have been around for so long. Yes it also is an ideal for many outside of practicality but the fact that more legit safe spaces are beyond their reach financially still remains. The over all understanding of everyone is that in community we find a more meaningful life and often takes big risks to keep our community alive and strong. Those who are directly involved are not just loosing their individual friends but a large chunk of a community we regard to family. For some people REAL family.

I've been going to underground parties for a long time and I can think of many spaces I've been to that are unsafe. In our 20's full of blind fearlessness we don't really think about these things as hard as we should. A culture is based around these gatherings and remain an integral part of our scene. I can play out lots of horrible scenes in my head in hind sight of places I've been to. There was even one recently I refused to go to anymore because I didn't want to be there if things go bad but I'm also older now. Paying rent to keep these spaces open does play a factor in why the limits get pushed, which is negligent to safety, but it's understood from attendees that if it weren't for these spaces there would be no or very very few gatherings that we all basically live for. There's were some really young kids though who I feel for deeply as they may have been a lot more naive as far as the situation they were walking into and expect their families to want justice.

It is very difficult to find legit venues to host these events becaude A) Commercial venues are mainly not open to hosting the music and performances we do. For some or many depending on the act, it's weird, hard to understand maybe, and even sometimes disturbing to a lot of the general population. It's not very profitable because it's not simplified or polished down enough to be commercially marketable. it's in its rawest form. We make the sounds larger commercial artist rip off or borrow. Artist playing to artists. B) We like to go later. There's very few commercial venues that's go till 4am-6am. C) We can't afford to buy into a venue. Venues cost anywhere from $1,000 to $4,000 from my experience. The way we are able to pay for the talent and the space is by having undergrounds, supplying our own space and systems. People also grow attachments to spaces so that helps perpetuate their existence.

There's always that small bar that understands and can make money off alcohol enough to be worth their time. While we can't go late in these bars we know we can book an international artist and that the show will still go on and not get busted and have had someone fly out for no reason. There's also a larger issue of the need to have an autonomous space. One where we can be free to express ourselvss openly without someone governing what we can and can't do or say and feeling exposed or out of place. Like you probably wouldn't throw a hip hop show in a line dancing country bar.

Even with all those reasons and even some listed above in the article, it is our scenes' responsibility to hold ourselves accountable, to ourselves and our friends, and the danger we put all of us in. This particular venue was being very negligent in my opinion with the pallet stairs. It bothers me the owner did not say for even a moment "I'm so sorry. We should have fixed the stairs." or something like that taking some kind of responsibility. Or maybe he did and it didn't get into the article?

One thing is for sure. Everything will be different in our community from now on and I hope things will not be done the same way we've been doing it.

Please remember to be kind and respectful as people morn and cope.

Posted by untitled on 12/04/2016 at 11:40 AM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

Kelley. Skilled people like you do need to come together to help some venues and educate promoters, patrons, performers, etc., but the Ghost Ship was so below safety standards that only a padlock on the door was the safe solution.

Posted by LJ Schneider on 12/04/2016 at 11:36 AM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

SO MAKE them safe!!! I am an environmental, health and safety auditor and would be more than happy to come and see these sites and give folks the information they need to prevent tragic events like this from happening! email me if you want HELP!!!!

Posted by Kelley Keogh on 12/04/2016 at 10:37 AM

Re: “Artists Who Survived Oakland Warehouse Fire Discuss The Tragedy, Those Missing, Need for Safe Underground Spaces

Really? Nobody should be punished? Depending on how you look at it, it's murder, and even if the law doesn't look at it that way, In my opinion at least somebody should sure as hell better be punished, unless these kids lives didn't mean anything, but I think do, and I don't want to see it happen again. I experience this writer as wanting to take off any responsibility that might cause him to feel grief or guilt. I'm sorry but if you ever went to this venue and saw how unsafe it was and didn't do or say anything, then yeah, you are responsible. You suggest that the underground music scene isn't to blame because marginalized people need a place to gather, so the answer is to stuff them in a building that's a fire hazard? Is that a good answer to that problem? Let's not try and find another way? Yes space is at a premium, so your blaming the city landlords for being greedy for these kids dying? In a away we are all responsible, being responsible is different than blame. Now, building and illegal second story with wooden slats leading up to it, that's irresponsible, just because it was built without a fire code examination doesn't mean that who ever put it up couldn't have thought to him or herself, maybe a sprinkler and a fire exit or two would be a good idea. It's sad to me that this persons response to this tragedy is wanting to not blame people who really are responsible and to worry that other venues might be effected by it. What about the victims and their families and friends. And one other thing, in order for a place to be "safe", external safety does counts, sure these people might have felt safe in that to a certain degree they felt loved and accepted, but they were not safe. If people are going to have a venue they need to make the safety of the people who come a priority otherwise all that love and acceptance is just an illusion. I understand you probably do care about these people,we all need to look at how this happened, and come up with a solution, so people aren't putting their lives in danger. And yes the people in the underground music scene need to be part of that. That's the best way I can think to honer their lives.

Posted by Sara B James on 12/04/2016 at 10:04 AM

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